Comments on: female programmers and programmers to be

By: [first] robotics and young women | Down Home Country Coding With Scott Selikoff and Jeanne Boyarsky

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 04:21:11 +0000

[…] I struggle with the talking about gender. I want for it to not matter. I’m a developer. But she is right that talking matters. And I remember when one of our students commented about not wanting to be a “female” role model. And I was forced to write that it still matters that the girls can look up to her. (For my thoughts on that topic, see this blog post.) […]

By: Jeanne Boyarsky

Jeanne Boyarsky — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:02:52 +0000

Marcia,
I didn’t mention it because I (luckily) haven’t experienced this problem. I think regardless of gender, you’d prefer to work in a department where people aren’t trying to undermine you!

By: Marcia McLean

Marcia McLean — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:09:34 +0000

Something rarely mentioned in discussions like these is how women geeks often wish to undermine other women, sometimes in a particularly vicious way. In this area (Boston/Eastern Mass.), petite women are favored and they quickly become prima donnas in IT departments. Women like this will fight tooth and nail to maintain their privileged position. I was undermined in two different jobs by women like this. Give me an all-male department any day!

By: Jeanne Boyarsky

Jeanne Boyarsky — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:42:27 +0000

> distinction between *top/hard-core* and *passionate/into it*
Interesting. I agree they heavily overlap – so much so that I don’t notice the difference. The people who are REALLY into it are the ones that are fun to be around.

> I still believe we place WAY too much emphasis on “visibility”.
World we live in? The first time I learned I was a role model had nothing to do with gender. It was when the owner of JavaRanch (Paul Wheaton) noted that all the moderators are. Kind of took me by surprise the first time. Because I want to enjoy what I do. Being a role model or visible is a side effect for me.

> But no matter how much fun they knew *I* was having, neither could
> imagine working in the field.
Interests? After all some people like knitting and it would drive me nuts!

> I once asked my daughter (and her entire high school class) about the
> “girls in tech” question, and my daughter summed it up: “Saying “girls in
> computing” is like saying, “girls in telephones””
This is awesome. It implies this won’t be an issue in another decade or two!

> No big deal. Just a tool.
Some of us like tools :). Whether they are physical tools in a shop or tech tools.

By: Kathy Sierra

Kathy Sierra — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:04:33 +0000

Wow — what a wonderful discussion you sparked, Jeanne. I needed to step away from the ‘women in tech’ topic for a few days before responding, but I don’t have much to add but a few thoughts

@roger
* I want to make a distinction between *top/hard-core* and *passionate/into it*… while these two are heavily overlapped on a Venn diagram, I’m a clear example of someone who was REALLY into programming and software dev despite being only average at actually doing it.

* I still believe we place WAY too much emphasis on “visibility”. Further, I believe these Where Are the Women discussions — while really REALLY important — are not without cost. Many women (me included) genuinely enjoy the work. Writing code. Making software. Working on projects. Learning. The idea that we must also be a representative of our gender, and have attention drawn to us simply *because* we are women in this field… these are not inherently good things. They can make the very thing we want in these discussions — to help more females find the work as appealing as we do — LESS likely. Many women — as is the case with many men — simply don’t WANT that kind of attention. Couple that with the well-intentioned but–I believe–way overblown, “IT is sexist / women have a very difficult time here” talking points, and we’re not exactly mounting a good PR campaign for the field.

Who wants to consider a career where it’s not enough to like–and be good at–the work, but where you must ALSO be a role model, highly visible target, and (perception, not reality) that is apparently an uphill struggle? Had anyone told me any of that… I’d never have gone down that path. As I said in another tweet, I chose it because I really enjoy it — and it was most likely a combination of Asperger’s, curiosity, and cluelessness that made it an amazing and wonderful choice.

I believe the elephant in the room in this discussion is the simple truth I faced each day raising my now 20-something daughters. Coding from the age of 5 or 6 (gotta love turtle logo), neither had known a world where tech–and CREATING tech–was anything other than natural and potentially interesting. But no matter how much fun they knew *I* was having, neither could imagine working in the field. “Spending all day in front of a computer writing code? Don’t think so.” (I tried explaining it wasn’t ALL day at the computer, but…)

I once asked my daughter (and her entire high school class) about the “girls in tech” question, and my daughter summed it up: “Saying “girls in computing” is like saying, “girls in telephones”” Her point? While in my day, tech held special magic and special barriers, to most of today’s middle-class teens in the US, “tech” is just a tool. A very *cool* tool, but still a tool. Not special, not frightening, and CERTAINLY not “just for boys”. You’ll pry their iPhones from their cold dead hands as they’re tweaking their MySpace profiles and downloading pirated shows on their laptop while reconfiguring the home wifi for their parents.

If we want more girls in tech, I believe we need more opportunities where tech is in a context of something *else*. It’s a tool… for something *else* they are deeply interested in. Something else that IS appealing. And if on the way to doing that other, cooler thing they need to write some software to make it happen? No big deal. Just a tool.

But I have no special knowledge or expertise as a Woman in Tech. These are just my opinions.
Regardless, thanks so much Jeanne. And by the way, you are an inspiration to *me*! 🙂

By: Link Post 124 « Rayet’s Blog

Link Post 124 « Rayet’s Blog — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:20:01 +0000

[…] Female programmers and programmers to be – Interesting take on Women in Technology. […]

By: A linkspam in every home (23rd December, 2009) | Geek Feminism Blog

A linkspam in every home (23rd December, 2009) | Geek Feminism Blog — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:14:20 +0000

[…] female programmers and programmers to be: Jeanne Boyarsky responds to some of Kathy Sierra’s twitters on, among other things, whether women speaking at conferences has any influence on the career choices of teenage girls. […]

By: mycall

mycall — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:01:12 +0000

Those who have been doing the hard programming work for longer, the less important gender is (since we all eventually see women developers who rock beyond belief as proof positive). Keep the spirit and vision!

By: April M. Williams

April M. Williams — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:55:52 +0000

My experience in Fortune 50 companies gave me an opportunity to work with many technology professionals. Higher up in the organization, there were fewer role models. I found a diverse team: gender, backgrounds, etc. results in the best projects.

I volunteer with the Women in Technology (WITI.com) including encouraging young women to enter the technology fields.

I encourage all of us to Spark Latent Energy http://www.cyberlifetutors.com/blog/2009/11/sparking-latent-energy/

April M. Williams
Speaker, Author, Coach

By: Jeanne Boyarsky

Jeanne Boyarsky — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:47:02 +0000

Crystal,
Cool! I think they key was that the school was in the right place at the right time. They saw I was interested first and then mentioned they could use mentors.